[Intro Music]

00:00:08:11 – 00:01:02:25
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated in every classroom, in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the Diverse Ed podcast, we have ten episodes. In each episode our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:16 – 00:01:18:19
Nick
Hello and welcome to the Diverse Ed Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I’m a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also on the steering group for LGBT ed.

00:01:19:04 – 00:01:30:10
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi, and I’m an assistant head teacher, also at Sarah Bonnell school. I’m also a network lead for London as part of Women Ed. In this episode, we’ll be talking to Orla from the Religion and Belief chapter.

00:01:31:15 – 00:01:36:18
Nick
Okay, Orla. Can you please introduce yourself to the audience in one sentence?

00:01:37:13 – 00:01:48:23
Orla
I am Orla McKeating. I’m a coach and a mentor and I’m the founder of Still I Rise Diverse Storytelling. So I create trusted learning spaces for all people to feel seen, heard and valued.

00:01:50:10 – 00:01:55:27
Nick
That was perfect. One sentence, very nice. Thanks.

00:01:55:27 – 00:02:03:15
Yamina
Great. So I what to ask you first, what inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto?

00:02:04:17 – 00:02:57:25
Orla
Well, I have been an avid fan of Diverse Educators for a while, I have kind of been watching and reading and using the resources and connecting with people on social media and things. And I just really believe in the power of collaboration and collective voices. I feel like we’re kind of surrounded by all this news. You know, nearly everything around us seems to be so negative and it feels like sometimes are going backwards and how are all these things changing. And then I come into spaces like this where there is so much hope and there’s so much, I suppose, coming together to make change. And that’s really what inspired me in terms of the Religion and Beliefs chapter. I grew up in Belfast, I was educated in the eighties and nineties, which was during the Troubles and then just post Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland.

00:02:58:06 – 00:03:35:16
Orla
And so my normal has always been segregated education, and it was so normal to me that I suppose whenever I stopped and reflected, it was like actually this is not okay. Because when we even look at the impact of that on the mental health of us as a society in Northern Ireland, I don’t love using that word ‘us’, society as in ‘us’ and ‘them’, but society as a group in Northern Ireland, the mental health, it’s a pandemic. So I suppose it’s keeping myself aware of that and sharing that to the UK and globally, I suppose.

00:03:36:13 – 00:04:29:29
Nick
Orla, you speak so powerfully and you write about it very powerfully as well in your chapter. When Yamina and I were reading it, we were really kind of struck by how much you spoke about the impacts on the mental health of people in Northern Ireland. And I’m sure that there are lots of takeaways for people in other places as well. But yeah, it was really, really quite profound actually to read that. So thank you for writing it. And I was really struck in your comment there as well about why you’ve been involved with the Diverse Educators network as well. You’re talking about like coming together to make change and the idea of connecting with other people too. And I agree. I think that’s a real strength of the network. And on the idea of kind of coming together as well, we would just really be very interested about the overall dynamics and the approach of the people writing the Religion and Beliefs chapter. So could you tell us a little bit about the different themes that your chapter team sought to explore?

00:04:29:29 – 00:05:52:24
Orla
So, we kind of, I kind of looked at the impact of segregated education in Northern Ireland. So I do mention in my chapter that 93% of education here still is segregated. So very often children between the ages of 4 and 18 are not knowing other people from different creeds. And so I feel like this kind of fosters up misunderstanding and fosters fear nearly that can feed into, I mean, different parts of discrimination or aggressions or micro-aggressions and feeds into stereotypes I think as well. And then I also talked then about the mental health literally in our country. There’s such a huge array of transgenerational PTSD and mental health problems and issues that just keep getting past down. And I just feel like even the awareness of knowing that it’s there and being aware that, okay, this is happening. This might be because of this, might be because of this. How can I look at myself? How can I look at my children? How can I look even not being an educator or a parent or a carer or an adult with children at home? How can I have these conversations, I suppose, to make that change in terms of education and in terms of in society as a whole?

00:05:53:12 – 00:06:06:06
Yamina
No, absolutely. And I think you’ve kind of really started to delve into it, but we were also curious to know about some of the key challenges for people under this protected characteristic and that your team really wanted to address through your chapter.

00:06:08:02 – 00:06:51:24
Orla
I suppose the challenges that I was addressing with it is nearly getting kind of stuck in that cycle or that system of it nearly being your norm. So I wonder with me, I am a single mum of a mixed race child. I lived in Belgium for ten years, which is a really, really diverse society and diverse in terms of what you can see but also diverse in terms of the mindset as well. And so I think the key challenge is, I suppose, is allowing people or inviting people to be aware of what impact this might have and how we might be able to make change.

00:06:52:26 – 00:07:58:18
Nick
And you write about that really powerfully and you talk about change quite a bit in your chapter. Whilst you talk about all of those challenges, I think you are very optimistic about what you think can change and some of those changes, so it would be really interesting to talk about that. And we were really struck by your takeaways in terms of what you were suggesting about the society as well. And I’m just going to read it out, but after I’ve read it out it would be really interesting for you to maybe expand upon them a little bit and maybe tell us a little bit about why they’re so important to you, because you wrote that a segregated education system does not foster common understanding, tolerance or equality. The mental health rate has declined and suicide rates increased. While there are other factors to consider, the education system is not benefitting from this. The lack of representation and inclusion within the curriculum has maintained a fixed mentality, halted intellectual curiosity and challenges the basic human rights of equity for all people. I mean, it’s really powerful stuff. But I was just wondering if you wanted to maybe expand on any of this in any way or explain why it’s important to you.

00:07:59:03 – 00:12:23:26
Orla
Yeah, sure. It’s quite bananas when people read back your work to you because I’m reading the back thinking, whoa, that’s actually quite good. And at the time, you don’t know if it is. So I suppose the segregated education system not fostering the understanding, tolerance, equality. It others, like it others. In a Catholic school setting here in Northern Ireland, I have seen where they’re practising sacraments. People who are not in the Christian in the Catholic faith will be put at the back of the room without a book, without any resources. What impact does that have on the child and also what is that saying then to the majority of the classroom that is Catholic and is choosing to do the sacrament. I mean, does that imply that being Catholic makes you better than someone else? And then later on in life, what does that feed in to? So I think that was a major thing for me. And then it’s feeding into the stereotypes. I’m a white cis woman of privilege. I’m like, I really had to unpack and unlearn a lot to kind of see, to open my own eyes. And that’s work that I’ve chosen to do. So those who maybe don’t have the space to reflect, feeding into the stereotypes, I mean, feeding into what we see in society, what we see on the news, the representation in the media, in movies, like how certain groups are represented. It’s kind of feeding into that then in the classroom as well. And it just it normalises grouping different people. So just putting different people in boxes and then that obviously affects the opportunity for growth and for progression and it just leaves underrepresented groups with less. It just does and it’s not enough. It’s, it’s just not enough. And it’s got to change. And I suppose then the mental health rates, how do we integrate mental health into the curriculum? How do we move away from, in Ireland and Northern Ireland our country was run by the church for so long that like it’s really important to me and this is a really personal one for me as well, because whenever I became a single mother, I just felt like I had failed, like that was it. And I was 30 and I mean, I lived away, I had had great experiences. I had friends from different, different faiths and different experiences. You know, whenever I turned 30 and became a single parent, it was like, oh, my life is done now, like it is so ingrained in me that like I had failed. I was a fallen woman. I was like nearly put in this group that if I didn’t have the character that I had, I would have just stayed there. And I know there’s so many other women who end up being single, single parents, and they’re just so massively affected by that. And that has been our upbringing like it just has. And I think I mentioned in the book about the mother and baby homes in Ireland and Northern Ireland, where if you were an unmarried mother, you just got put into and you were just, you were called an inmate, you were institutionalised and there was so much abuse went on there, that that’s nearly, it was normal again, normal in our society. I know people were families that happened to and it was just accepted. So it’s how do we move away from that? How do we have the conversations that are difficult to have where we can accept situations that are ultimately healthier for children, for young people, for adults, and I suppose like language is also a really important thing for me. Like I see quite a lot in the education system here and I don’t know about the UK, but perhaps the same where they’re sending notes home for Mum and Dad. Straight away that’s othering so many groups, same gender families, maybe widowed parents and single parents, people in care. It’s so complex and it just, I suppose, focusing on a more inclusive setting bit by bit, baby step by baby step, and being tolerant and accepting of each other, really being aware that, yes, we’re going to say the wrong thing. Yes, we’re going to mess up. Yes, we need to do the work a little bit ourselves, to look at these underrepresented groups in society and in the classroom and dig deeper on that and move it into the curriculum. And it’s a big task, but I’ve got to stay positive.

00:12:23:26 – 00:12:50:23
Yamina
It’s actually something that you mentioned in your commitment in the manifesto where you say essentially what we need to do is create a more inclusive approach to education where all are valued, respected and have equal opportunity to thrive as well as building a thriving nation. I just love that term, but we were wondering if you could tell us more about that commitment to the manifesto and how you want to galvanise readers and also the listeners here today.

00:12:50:23 – 00:14:41:20
Orla
I suppose, like I’ve said, awareness and merely being compassionate with those around us and ourselves and being aware that we all have the access to knowledge, we have the access to resources. It is not up to marginalised groups to educate us. It’s just not. Like, it’s all there. Get the book. Buy the Manifesto. I use this for a lot of my learning as well and it’s just kind of knowing, right, the system isn’t working. It’s not equal. What’s going to change when we take the steps to make it more inclusive and more diverse, and more accepting? What does this mean for our grandchildren? What are our leaders going to look like? Because the way the world is being led now is not good enough and it’s not enough. So what, and it’s nearly like breaking it down into 20 years. I want our leader to look like this. So ten years it’s got to look like this. Five years, these are our children. Like these are the conversations we can be having with our children and nearly having the conversations about, because my son’s nine, and he will ask questions like whenever, I won’t mention any names, but whenever there is leadership flaws and mishaps, you can call it what you want, mess ups essentially, and letting the big portions of the country down. It’s having those conversations of, well, do you know, do you think this is fair? Do you think that worked? How did it not work? How might It not have worked. And when we look around, you know, when we’re looking at the leaders now, what do they look like? What are their thoughts? What are their beliefs? Listen to the words that they’re using and then just gradually building up that awareness there so that young people and even adults can kind of move forward with that.

00:14:43:04 – 00:15:57:18
Nick
I find it really interesting to hear what you meant about kind of young people and adults moving forward about that. And I think your contribution is a really forward facing one because you as well as reflecting on the current situation, you also talk about potential solutions as well, which I find really, really important. You also spoke quite a bit just now about some of the unpacking that you’ve had to do as somebody who’s a white, cis person. And since that reflects my own identity as well, I completely echo what you’re saying and you know encourage others to make sure that we’re reflecting on that privilege as well. And one of the things that I think you’ve taken from that is talking about the curriculum, and that was really, really interesting to me to think about curriculum, why it’s so important. We noticed in your chapter that one of the questions posed was what might happen if we implemented a curriculum, learning about history and background of all cultures, creeds and ethnicities. I’m really interested to hear about what you think, what might happen, or what has happened when such an inclusive curriculum actually is used. I mean, I know you’ve been talking about examples actually where it hasn’t been used, but I was wondering what you think might happen if it is implemented or any examples that you’ve heard of where it’s been implemented as well.

00:15:58:17 – 00:17:20:17
Orla
So I think if we look at history or share history or stories from the past or change makers of the past that are actually representative of society today, how much is that going to empower underrepresented groups. In fact, I’ll answer that question, it’s going to empower them. It’s going to empower them to do better. It’s going to empower them to know that they can make change, that they can make a difference. And then the majority groups are going to understand, well actually, you know, it’s kind of that subconscious thing as well, I think of, and I’ve definitely experienced it, of my life is going to be easy and then something will happen that’s like a big moment, a big kind of life changing moment. So in my life it was becoming a single parent. I’m thinking, oh my goodness, I’m actually not, you know, there’s going to be barriers, now. So the majority groups in the classroom knowing that actually it wasn’t just people that looked like me that made change and made history and made the world the way it is. It’s other people. And I can see that and I can see people that looked like that in my classroom that can also make change. And I’m going to walk beside them and I’m going to support them and I’m going to help them break down those barriers and they’re going to help us work together to make change. And it just would I mean, to me, it’s a no brainer. It’s just a no brainer. Like the way it has worked isn’t working at all or the way it has been isn’t working at all.

00:17:20:17 – 00:18:03:06
Nick
So I just had a question that just struck me is, sometimes when these conversations happen, you see people say things like, oh, but that’s narrowing the curriculum offer. Like, you know, there’s a lot of conversation. I don’t know if this is just something that’s in the English curriculum. It might be relevant as well in Northern Ireland, but people say, oh, but you’re canceling Shakespeare, you’re getting rid of that rich cultural heritage that people deserve. And you know, my opinion is that I think that those arguments are massively overblown and unhelpful. But what kind of comments would you make if you were to hear somebody that would make that kind of a suggestion about the fact that what you’re suggesting is making a curriculum more diverse and more progressive?

00:18:04:03 – 00:18:28:22
Orla
Well, I think there’s enough stars in the sky for everyone. It doesn’t mean that we need to cancel or remove or change. It’s adding more to it. So add more experiences, adding more voices to it, add more fascination and curiosity for our children. So I don’t think it’s this or that. I think it’s kind of integrating more and more variety.

00:18:29:28 – 00:19:02:28
Yamina
Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And I think the idea of mapping it out perhaps and really planning how we do that is really, really important. So we’ve got that representation. But what really struck me from your chapter, Orla, was that you inform us that Northern Ireland has the highest rate of PTSD of any studied country in the world. I didn’t know that until I read your chapter. It’s shocking. You specifically mentioned that stigma is essentially still the major deterrent for people seeking out help. And we were curious to know what suggestions you had about what we could do to tackle this.

00:19:04:14 – 00:20:51:26
Orla
I think creating trusted spaces where we can have conversations, where it’s not attacking people, where it’s not judging people, where it’s, you know, creating a culture nearly of mental health wise, do you know what, I’m actually not okay today. Like I feel like this. I’m going to work through it. I’m going to find the tools to do that. I’m not joking about it, like I feel like and I do it too still whenever I’m a bit lost, but there’s a lot of a narrative of like lots of banter or lots of craic, like trauma, let’s make a joke out of this. Sometimes it’s kind of like, you know what? Let’s just maybe unpack it. Let’s, let’s look and let’s see and let’s accept and know that it’s not normal to be happy and productive all of the time. And I think we have access to, everything’s always on, like it’s not 9 to 5 any more. It’s answering emails, it’s contacting, it’s meetings, it’s zoom meetings in the evening, on the weekend and everything. So it’s nearly accepting, accepting ourselves as we are and accepting everyone else as they are. And for creating those spaces for conversation and for raising that awareness. I just think that conversation and communication is one of the most powerful ways for reducing stigma. Like it’s why I do the work that I do and I do see an impact I really do, and I see an impact in my own personal life, on my own kind of mental health struggles that I kind of deal with quite regularly. So yeah.

00:20:51:26 – 00:21:21:18
Nick
I find that really powerful and it certainly resonates with me as well. It’s so, so important that those conversations have happened and in your chapter you write quite a bit about this as well. You also talk about how we need to reframe the curriculum so that young people are supported in terms of their mental health. And you also, obviously in your own work, have done a great deal to support educators as well. I was just wondering, where you have done that work to support educators regarding their mental health, what kind of impact have you seen? How has that really helped people?

00:21:21:18 – 00:22:08:05
Orla
In terms of the educators and the adults, it’s much more of a slow burner than with children and young people. But I suppose it’s met like with curiosity and nearly there’s a bit of shock there. It’s kind of like, what, we can do our job and talk about the things that aren’t typically talked about and nearly accept them. And I think there’s, there’s positive impact. Like I think it’s kind of allowing or inviting people to be transparent with children and with young people and be transparent with themselves and with the people that they work with and their peers and know that that’s okay.

00:22:08:05 – 00:22:23:25
Nick
Thank you. Moving forward to considering the way that things can be better then, Yamina and I were really interested to consider in an ideal world what kind of changes would you like to see happen in the school system regarding the protected characteristic of religion and belief?

00:22:25:07 – 00:24:03:20
Orla
I want to see representation across the board like I want my child, I want young people in our society to be learning about every different religion and not a tick box of random like, oh, this is this and we’ll move on. This is, you know, not homing in on Christianity. I want to see them learn it about, and celebrating, all of the different aspects of different religion and different beliefs and moving away nearly from that fear factor. And not knowing and having those trusted spaces where questions can be asked and where it’s okay to do that. And also, I would love to see, I know that Halal food, this is an example, Halal food is served in all the schools in the UK. Do the staff actually know what Halal food is? Because my son keeps getting given halal food and I know why, but I know that it’s the staff aren’t being educated in it. So they see a child with brown skin and automatically think that he eats Halal food. Not only is that a micro-aggression, but what message is that giving to his Muslim peers in the dinner hall. So it’s nearly just digging deep on that and spending more time on it. Like it shouldn’t just be like an hour a week. It should be an ongoing thing where you’re learning from, in Northern Ireland it’s P1 to P7 so age 4 to 11, and maybe dig in a bit deeper, seeing what those beliefs are and where they come from and what the cultures are and why we could celebrate them and maybe have those culture days again moving away from the tick box, but having people come and share that culture and celebrate it in the school setting.

00:24:05:09 – 00:24:15:23
Yamina
Thank you so much. And then, Nick and I were really curious to kind of broaden it out. So if you had your ideal situation, or in an ideal world, what changes would you like to see happen in wider society then?

00:24:16:20 – 00:24:36:12
Orla
Representation. I want to see it everywhere. Like I want to see every marginalised group represented across the board. Like I want to see diverse leaders, I want to see diverse conversations. I want to see, like I want to see curiosity. I want to see representation.

00:24:38:02 – 00:25:13:26
Nick
I think that is a really, really important point and a really good one to end on as well. The idea of representation being so, so important and in your chapter you talk about that so much and in the conversation today you’ve done that as well. So I just wanted to say really, really big thank you for your contributions. You’ve spoken so powerfully in a way that I’m certain will resonate within and beyond your own context and for many others as well. And on behalf of Yamina and myself, I just want to say a huge thank you. You’ve given us a lot to think about, but I think it’s important that we think about it. And I know that we will all be really grateful for it. So, yeah, a huge thank you.

00:25:14:18 – 00:25:15:20
Orla
Thank you so much.

00:25:15:25 – 00:25:25:12
Yamina
Thank you so much, Orla. We’ve been Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi the co-hosts of the Diverse Ed podcast.

[Outro Music]

00:25:25:12 – 00:25:40:25
Hannah
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Educators Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think, so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book Diverse Educators: A Manifesto