[Intro Music]

00:00:08:11 – 00:01:02:25
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: every one is celebrated, in every classroom, in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the Diverse Ed podcast, we have ten episodes. In each episode, our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:12 – 00:01:17:13
Nick
Hello and welcome to the Diverse Ed Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I’m a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also on the steering group for LGBT ed.

00:01:17:26 – 00:01:27:16
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi and I’m an assistant head teacher also at Sarah Bonnell School, and I’m also a network lead for Women Ed in London. In this episode, we’ll be talking to Julie from the disability chapter.

00:01:28:10 – 00:01:32:12
Nick
Julie, could you please introduce yourself to the audience in one sentence?

00:01:33:04 – 00:01:40:09
Julie
Oh, one sentence is easy. I’m Julie Cassiano, head teacher at a school in Northampton.

00:01:40:09 – 00:01:47:07
Yamina
Thank you so much. And what inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto?

00:01:47:07 – 00:03:00:23
Julie
I saw the, so Hannah Wilson put a tweet out requesting people to contribute. And it was probably about maybe six months prior to that that I wrote, so Angela Browne had a women’s group. You were part of it, weren’t you? Yamina, were you? No. Okay. And it was a group, a private group on social media, women could make contributions, writing blogs about personal experiences and where they could be shared and commented on in smaller groups and lots of women on Twitter were in that group. And I happened to write a blog about my experiences with mental health in my earlier life. And I’d never realised up until that point that mental health was even considered a disability, which seems awful now. And that’s what inspired me, I already had something that I could work with and just put my name forward and Hannah got back to me and said that she’d like me to contribute.

00:03:00:23 – 00:03:21:02
Nick
We’re glad you did put yourself forward because it’s amazing. And yeah, your chapter is really, really interesting. We were interested a bit about the overall chapter as well as the individual contributions within the chapter. And so maybe could you tell us a little bit about some of the different themes that the whole chapter team wanted to explore?

00:03:21:23 – 00:05:16:15
Julie
Yeah. So that was really important as well that we met as a group. And so Ruth was our team editor and we did spend some time talking about how to, in order for the whole chapter to come together, we obviously didn’t want any overlaps. There were a couple, but they were still personalised within that. But I know that there was learning disabilities, ADHD, there were physical disabilities, and there were a range of disabilities that were discussed like neurodiversity, mental health. I do believe that there was another on mental health, but it was on a very different path to mine. So Ruth coordinated that in order to ensure, but she also gave us a very clear structure in terms of how we presented our individual contribution so that the chapter flowed really well. But one thing that was positive, a real positive aspect is because we’ve met via Zoom is we got to work as a team in terms of uploading what we wrote, helping to contribute in terms of editing. And there were a couple of us, including myself, who at times found the process quite reflective in terms of when you get writing about something so deep and personal, you actually have to go through a form of self supervision and then that comes out in the writing and then you have to kind of remove that part of the writing which we supported it with. And then we were able to kind of talk about those aspects during the Zoom group meetings, which was really good.

00:05:16:15 – 00:05:42:15
Yamina
And you are right, I was part of that daily writing challenge about that and actually I found myself having to remind myself a lot. You do end up writing about things that are so deeply personal and almost remember those feelings and emotions. And that’s something that we want to explore, is that what were some of the key challenges for people with the protected characteristic of disability that your team in the chapter wanted to address?

00:05:42:15 – 00:09:07:18
Julie
Ableism, really, awareness, microaggressions and particularly mine was from an employer. Most of them are looking at it from different angles in terms of the education workplace. But I tried to, there are elements of mine where I’m speaking to somebody who may have a mental health condition and giving advice on what they need to do. But I’m also aware of psychological safety for an employer. So there’s an element of difficulty. So it needs to start. And as a headteacher I feel that I needed to use a platform, my voice, to say, actually it sits with us as the employer to be educated, to be knowledgeable, not just about ableism, and that was one aspect of the book, but in terms of ensuring that you’ve got a safe space where everyone belongs in terms of inclusion or setting. So I wrote from a headteacher perspective in terms of what you can do to include somebody who has a diagnosis of a mental health condition. But there’s two aspects that employers need to explore, and that’s somebody who has a long term diagnosed mental health condition. But there will always be people who go through elements of glitches. So there’s wellbeing, and there’s a lot I’m seeing on Twitter that, some people who don’t possibly understand or read a lot about it. You could kind of get confused in all the different layers. So wellbeing is the protective aspect in terms of how you can protect your staff from the workplace becoming a factor that causes mental health. Then you’ve got people who may have something that’s happened in their lives that then has caused, if the social environment nurture the person, could be a short term mental health condition, something like bereavement and if people around the person who is bereaved put in all the protective factors, then they could, you know, they can generally, that will be a bridge that they go through with all the support. And then you have someone with a, you know, within psychology it’s debatable whether it’s cognitive or biological or socially impacted, but you will have someone with a diagnosed condition, someone with like bipolar or someone with OCD or etc.. And it’s about knowing all of those different layers of what reasonable adjustments need to be made in order for that person to contribute effectively within your organisation. And I know I’m not diagnosed, but it’s very obvious I’m on the pathway for ADHD as well as I do have OCD. And I know that there’s so much to my OCD that make me effective. Like that overanalysing that my brain goes through makes me a very strong senior leader. I see things way before others do, those meteors that are coming, because of my overanxious brain. So I scrutinise everything deeply. So there are huge benefits to including people who have different disabilities. And that’s really what we’re all trying to achieve is understanding that these people do belong, they have something to offer, and it’s our job and our duty to give reasonable adjustments to ensure that they are included.

00:09:07:18 – 00:10:13:01
Nick
Thank you for that. That was a really powerful analysis of the situation of what you’ve written about, what was at stake for people. So thank you. I really found that interesting. And I also want to say that I loved hearing about your writing process as well. That was very interesting to me. So thank you for those. And we were also interested to comment about people’s takeaways that they’d written and within their chapters. I’m going to read out if it’s okay to get the takeaways that you write and then just ask you to maybe reflect a bit more on that and expand on why that was so important here. So you said that discrimination and prejudice behaviours cause mental health difficulties. Consider intersectionality, research the work of DC and Ryan’s 1985 self-determination theory and studies into neuro plasticity to understand how these improve motivation and wellbeing in the workplace and discuss with your senior leadership team how to create a safe working culture for those with a mental health illness. Really interesting takeaways. Could you just expand a little bit more on them?

00:10:13:09 – 00:16:53:01
Julie
Yeah. So again, if we start with neuroplasticity, that’s exporing people who may have mental health conditions due to trauma or socially inflicted, and so much research has said that the brain hence the plasticity, actually the newer neuroscience states that people can, the brain can start to repair and heal where commonly it was seen as, okay, this is a condition that’s been caused. It’s damage from trauma. We can medicate. We can treat, but we can’t cure. There’s still a lot of, it’s a very, very, I’m no psychologist and I’m not going to go too deeply into it. I’ve literally just on a very brief level, but generally saying that with those right, I think the right vocabulary to have out there is the positive protective factors that we can do in order to enable somebody with a mental health condition which trauma is, as well can be part of, can be included and again, neuroplasticity is saying it’s a very large theory but the small part of it is explaining that the brain can heal itself, meaning that some of these symptoms or difficulties can improve over time, which if they’re in the right environment to heal. SDT – self-determination theory is something I’ve been studying a lot throughout my masters, and I’m exploring it through an element of continuous professional development at the moment, and that it’s actually, it’s all about motivation and drive. And it’s a theory that links to Maslow’s needs and self actualization. And it really is about three core aspects within the workplace and teachers coming to the classroom. And those are providing space where people have autonomy, where they belong and I always forget the third one, but it’s a place, the autonomy where people get to make decisions and be part of whatever environment there is within the classroom that children are getting to make choices regarding their learning whether it’s their target setting, and all of these leads to a healthy mindset. And so there’s autonomy, there’s a sense of belonging, which is really important and key. And I’m trying to see what the third one is. Competence? Yeah, it’s competence. It’s being able to, see I was being a teacher, you know, that thing where you miss one and hoping that the learners will contribute. That’s what I was doing there. But yeah, yes, they need to be able to feel that they can do their part, that comes, you know, where they’re at the actual point where they’re not over challenged but they’re not under challenge to the point where they feel that they can’t contribute. Those three contribute together to make a healthy, so that leads into the intrinsic motivation and a healthy mindset to be able to contribute what it is that you’re asking someone to do. And then the final point, I wanted to make, I can’t remember how you worded it in the chapter, but it was about coming away from, okay, some employees would argue, well, there’s all these different characteristics and I can read this book and there’s all of this stuff I’ve got to learn. But there’s time and all of the other difficulties that come with being a head teacher, but generally, if you explore the book and you go through the themes from an employer’s perspective or as a peer on peer colleague generally, it’s taking the time to understand, to listen, and to give someone ownership over what their difficulties in any given situation are and to not minimise people’s lived experiences. But that’s something that really gets under my cage, is that we deny people’s lived experiences. So saying no, that doesn’t exist here in the UK and actually we are really good at it, you know, we’re far better than… that’s not good enough. And if you’re an employer to minimise people’s experiences or there’s too much complaining, you know, if we take that into the classroom, we have high expectations of our children and we want them to get better. I’m not going to sit with the teachers and say class 1D is lower than us so we can just sit back, relax a little bit now, can we? You know, we don’t do that. We drive to be the best. And yes, there are some strong aspects that within this work in terms of the UK or England, but there is so much more to do that what’s key is allowing the person a voice to express how they feel, to take what they say seriously and to allow them to tell you what they want. How are they going to feel? No employer has ever had to sit and say to me, okay, so you have an OCD diagnosis. So I’m going to need to. I need to present myself in a safe psychological space where an employer, where I feel comfortable, an employer, I can say, okay, I have OCD. These are the things that I find difficult, and this is how the workplace can include me. And I need the employer to be reasonable. And in doing so, you get so much more out of the employee. You know, I have often found reasonable adjustments are really important to me, having individual plans for certain members of staff who need it, regardless of what their inclusion need is, that they can completely know I will, in my workplace, make reasonable adjustments in any form and to the point where I can’t make them where they become not reasonable. And that will come with very strong rationale and staff know that. So they will come. And I’ve never in all of my career had anybody take advantage because of that. And that’s in the theory, we’re very the opposite. We think, no, we can’t do that because people will take advantage. You know, we can’t have a relaxed absence management policy because people will take advantage. And I’ve often found it completely the opposite. The more autonomy you give people, the more respect you give people, the more reasonable adjustments you make for people when required, the more you get out of the workforce.

00:16:53:12 – 00:18:08:11
Yamina
Yeah, I love that. I’m just, I’m. Yeah, Nick and I just giving you a round of applause. I think what we think is, is so powerful is that you’re talking from your own lived experience. And so, I mean, I definitely have suffered from it. Well, not the word suffered, but that’s what we say, don’t we, say suffered like that was such an automatic thing. You know, when my mom passed away, bereavement, you know, I think it was the week after I was back at school, I was in a new school. I had to start. I was starting senior leadership and it was tough. And I think what you said earlier about bereavement can be almost like, you used, almost a transition. I think that’s really powerful what you said and having organisations that really support that to support you is really important. And you say that in your commitment in the manifesto, what you say is that a school is designed to fulfil human and societal ambitions, but we need to be committed to social justice and creating a world where everyone can fit in safely without prejudice. I love that. We love that. We want to ask you about your commitment to the manifesto and how you want to galvanise action from the readers and the listeners.

00:18:08:11 – 00:20:53:26
Julie
Yeah, so generally I’m quite active in my social media in terms of knowing that I’m in a place of privilege, in terms of, I’ve got a platform, I am in a senior leadership role that comes with a lot of decision making. So I am a member of Diverse Ed, Women Ed, a few organisations, and I use my platform freely to share. I think I’m sure all of us are part of the group, the DEI group, Yamina, I know I know you from a group. That’s what I know. I’m just not sure which group it is, but yeah, there’s the DEI group, there’s two I’m part of that Hannah leads on. So I actively contribute and share blogs on my platform or, you know, give my opinions and engage and read and then support others. And from that way, I’ve got quite a network of people who are contributing to this work in all forms on all of the characteristics. And they know if they send me a DM and say, can you share this, they know it’ll get shared. Yes, I’m a head teacher. Yes, I’m connected to my school. I don’t fear, because I’m so passionate about the work and I am responsible for the children and the families that I work for. It’s my duty to not only consider the wider, my platform, Twitter or the wider, but I’m constantly conscious that I want to present myself in a way where my community is proud to have me as the head teacher. I have a very, very diverse community, definitely family and children who represent all of the characteristics and they need to know that the headteacher is a voice for that. And that is definitely something I’m starting to get feedback from parents about. And so I use multiple platforms to state that’s who I am. These are my, this is how I feel about things. So taking part in podcasts like I said, sharing things online because I have quite a large following. So I’m happy to share people’s work on my platform and being an active voice. So if I’ve seen something in the media, I will actively share it and say and call it out. And I will attend Diverse Ed conferences and support new voices that are breaking through and generally just try to keep active and not let that calling out die out. Because I think we’re at a really pivotal place at the moment where people are starting to listen and we just can’t let that go.

00:20:53:26 – 00:21:33:15
Nick
Thank you for talking about it and why it’s so important because it is and it’s essential we do talk about it and it’s really, really valuable work. So thank you for that. And in the chapter we actually notice that you said about microaggressions and you said, how can you challenge mental health microaggressions being used in your school, thus protecting the dignity of those disabled with mental health? I mean, the word dignity. I mean, how powerful is that? And you’ve clearly done a huge amount of work to create positive environments with respect to mental health and indeed other elements of diversity in your own work. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about the impact of such work that you’ve been able to have?

00:21:34:06 – 00:26:57:15
Julie
Yeah, so impact is a little bit difficult because then I don’t want any sort of member of staff that I’ve worked with, if you like, to feel that I’m sharing their story because it might be quite obvious in the multiple workplaces. I can give some overview, but I would like to touch upon this word dignity actually, because you raised that and that’s a word I use a lot in the workplace, often with all layers – governors, stakeholders, children, that in every single thing we do, we have to consider the dignity of the person or of the situation that we’re dealing with. So let’s just say within school cultures, you know, there can be this tendency to let’s just say one of the things that probably rattled my cage quite a bit is the gossip culture that can be surrounded with education in terms of sometimes within, I don’t want to go too much, I’m thinking of parents listening, but there can be certainly, certainly not in my school currently, but I have seen little pockets within other settings of where the staff room may become a place where we talk about the situations within families, etc. and that is something at senior level we need to address because I always stop and say, have you invited somebody to share their story with you? And if you haven’t, then you don’t know how they’ve ended up in that situation. And it can be anything from decisions that they’re making that might not be perceived to be ethical. It might be that they’re users of some kind, you know, criminal activity, but it’s not our job to judge. It’s our job to find out how they got themselves in that situation. It’s about social change. So coming back to that word dignity in terms of the protected characteristics, it’s about, you know, being considerate. Have you heard this person’s story? Have you contributed to ensuring that that person feels that this whole culture has psychological safety in terms of feeling that they can talk about that and how that impacts them? Have we built, which I don’t believe many schools have at this point, have we created a safe space in terms of where we individually support each other through those aspects of difficulties. In terms of microaggressions, I’ve mentioned this before, you know, there’s so many in all of the different aspects and some of them are so deep rooted into our language that many are unconscious. And I know we’re challenging unconscious now was saying, well, it just needs to become conscious within the rhetoric. Nevertheless, it’s about language, the way language, you know, I say this with children who swear in school, that if actually that’s how they are socialised and that’s the embedded language that’s being used at home to just turn around and now start disciplining children. Because they need to become consciously aware, then you need to go through a process of intervention of removing that. I have lots of children when they first start school, that is just the normal, you know, they will just say, I’ve had an f-ing great day or it’s just so embedded naturally into their language that we start, we use a different approach. I’m not going to give you a detention for that because you’re just flowing with language that has been taught. If you’re going to swear at me, you’re going to tell me to f-off. That’s different. You’re being aggressive towards me. But if they’re just flowing with that language, it’s about what intervention are we using to ensure they know that language is wrong. So that’s something that’s going to take a very, very long time to update people with what language is quite offensive and shouldn’t be used. I think racialised, racial microaggressions should be far more obvious and those ones should be challenged. In terms of ableism, so I refer to a number of discussions I’ve had with people. So some people will say, oh, that’s the OCD in you. I don’t find that offensive. Personally, I actually think coming from a place where, you know, mental health was something you had to be really careful not to expose. It was seen as a dark secret, if you like, for people to go around randomly diagnosing themselves with conditions proudly, it makes me think, oh, well, we’ve moved on, haven’t we? You know about the condition, you know how it manifests and you’re not shy to put the stamp on yourself. So however, I have to be very mindful. That’s my opinion and that may not be for somebody else. So we need to be aware. So I think it’s just about exposing these. And like I said, things change. There are new ones. I think it’s just about educating people about, it’s the same thing with swearing of children. It’s about putting interventions in place where people know microaggressions are a thing, educating people on it, and allowing people to become more consciously aware of their microaggressions and not being fragile. If you’re challenged on a microaggression that you’ve used, I think that’s the biggest issue.

00:26:57:15 – 00:27:38:04
Yamina
The idea of fragility is so key and sometimes it’s linked to, so intrinsically linked, with our ego that it feels personal when we challenge someone, we must take that away because that inner work is never done, I think you just spoke so powerfully about that. So thank you so much, Julie. And we noticed that in your chapter you write so positively about the leaders in your first school and how they had implemented without perhaps even realising the three fundamentals of self-determination theory, which you talked about earlier. We wanted to ask you if you could expand on what specifically did they do that had a real positive impact on you and your colleagues so that those who are listening or who’ve read the chapter might be moved to action by it?

00:27:38:04 – 00:31:13:00
Yamina
Yeah, yeah. I often feel, I always talk positively about my first school experience. I worked under two very, very good heads, but I worked more closely as a senior leader with the second head. And yeah, I definitely have become the leader I am because of what I saw in terms of his approach to leadership. And once I joined Diverse Ed and started reading about the strategies that leaders should use, I often found myself saying, oh, I’ve seen that model. I’ve seen that model. oh, I’ve seen that model. And it meant, you know, since I always knew and I always said to him he was a very, very good senior leader. And the team, the deputies, that he had working with him. But everything comes from the top, doesn’t it? The culture comes from the top. So definitely the team that I worked around with stayed because they embodied and embraced his ethos. But it did come from the top and he absolutely at no point felt any fear to call out any form of injustice or any non-inclusivity or microaggressions, and I was actually witness to that. And in doing so, he would never do it publicly. When I say witness to it, I would notice impact changes because of a certain situation. It was always done very respectfully and it was yeah, it was just in terms of, you know, I went back and explored to help others because it wasn’t really something I sat and thought about was actually at the age of 25 and my life was upside down. I had a condition I was struggling with. I had nobody besides my inner family that I lived with. I didn’t have anybody I could rely on, the medical professions were beyond not very good at the time. So I’m hoping they’ve improved. My mum and dad, bless them, were as supportive as they could be but as a generation they didn’t really understand. Paracetamol and hot water bottle and you’ll be fine kind of thing, loving but just didn’t understand and yeah. I just didn’t, you know, I mean, how did I get from that point to, 20 years later, which is, you know, being able to get my degree, be able to be successful in teaching, to be able then to move into a senior leadership role. And by the age of 35 I was the head teacher, erm assistant head teacher. So 20 years to get the education, to practice being a teacher and get to that role, that’s a short space of time. What had happened is, in that period of time too, in order to enable that to happen, and I reflect heavily on there was definitely different aspects of my home life that made things easier for me and I don’t want to neglect that. But career wise it was that setting. It was just such a wonderful place to work and to grow, so inclusive. The head teacher there is so, you know, empathy and compassion is the biggest aspect of his leadership. He leads with the heart and I always said that, he leads with the heart, heart, head, heart, head, I used to say. So heart, then you would have to rationalise, back to the heart, checking in and rationalise again. And I guess that’s where I learned to lead myself.

00:31:14:00 – 00:31:43:13
Nick
So great to hear that and to hear, it’s just lovely, it’s just really lovely and really, really important to hear about those positive experiences and what goes on well in those examples that you’ve experienced, and then that you’ve created as well. Great. So thank you for that. We were wondering, in an ideal world, maybe building on some of the successes, what needs to happen within the whole school system regarding the protected characteristic of disability.

00:31:44:11 – 00:33:49:12
Julie
I genuinely, genuinely believe that one aspect that I don’t think is is clear enough is, I don’t think that within our frame, I know Ofsted is a grey area. But you know, I want to stay positive about Ofsted, in terms of my experience with Ofsted, it’s generally been supportive and positive etc. But I don’t want to go into that debate. There are difficulties around Ofsted. However, I do think there is a framework that assesses the education system and is it assessing the right areas? And I actually, often I’m not sure why our equality policy isn’t sitting with our safeguarding policy very, very tightly and why that doesn’t come through keeping children safe in education. So that’s on a children’s perspective because they go on to be the next generation, the next generation. So we need to be ensuring that our inclusive practice is very well known with the children so that they go on to be global citizens. But we also need to be protecting their safety. Non-inclusive policy or practices, it is proven, go on to create mental health difficulties, which is a safeguarding issue. So I’m not sure why they don’t come together. I feel the Equality Act and the SEND code of practice are two policies that link heavily with safeguarding. And I think those three policies need to be at the forefront of every induction at the start of every year and filtered through and revisited. And I do feel that there should be core elements of, I believe inclusion should be a factor on the framework. I think we have personal development and behaviour and attitudes. I believe that that actually could probably become one and that actually part of the framework should be inclusion and that should be heavily on the Equality Act and SEND and it’s as simple as that for me. Head teachers do what Ofsted say because they fear it, and it’s the way to move forward in my opinion.

00:33:51:00 – 00:34:02:12
Yamina
Thank you so much. And we were curious as well to know if we zoom out a little bit. In an ideal world, what changes would you like to see in wider society beyond school and organisations?

00:34:02:12 – 00:36:39:13
Julie
Wow, that’s a big question, isn’t it? Do you know, we’ve implemented into our school character education and I believe that we really just need to work on individual character within ourselves. And I think and again, we do much of this within our curriculum in our school, but I’m not convinced by looking at social media and within politics that people actually know how to listen. Do we know how to listen to other people? And I talk to my sons about this a lot. When you become a leader, predominantly a large part of the role is to just sit and listen, listen to lived experience, listen deeply. And I’ve been coaching some leaders that say sometimes when you listen, you’re going to hear things you disagree with. You’re going to hear things that may touch sensitive issues within yourself. You may feel annoyed or irritated by someone else’s opinion. Also, you need to allow those behaviours to just sit, not react, and then you need to go away and think about what evidence is there out there to back up what this person says and you go through it. You go through a complex process of taking in what somebody has shared with you. And then you come back and you really appreciate that someone has moved your thinking on, has taken you in a different direction and made you see life in a different way. You may not still fully agree and you could rationalise that, but we just don’t listen. We are very reactive as a society. I think we’re quite selfish as humans and actually in my research that I’ve been studying, it is innate that we are built as selfish humans. We need to learn how to become selfless. And I just think that we need to learn how to challenge and debate in a respectful way. We don’t need to troll. We don’t need to. We just need to communicate. And actually, some challenge is a positive thing. It’s part of learning. Feedback is love, I read once as part of emotional intelligence, and we need to not take it personally. And I think if the whole world, I’m not saying I’m perfect, I just read a lot. This is other people’s work, this isn’t mine and this was modelled to me in a previous school. But I just think it’s as simple as that. Listen, listen to others. And how can you use that story or that example to better yourself and to understand others?

00:36:40:24 – 00:37:15:29
Nick
That is so good. Thank you. You know, as you are talking, as you’re talking now, it was just amazing. I was thinking about Yamina and I was thinking you see lessons she does and she’s a really, really good example of someone who is doing everything that your talking about and I just have to say that is absolutely true. And your words are so important, and so, so helpful, and I know that they will be really gratefully received by people who are listening to this as well. And so I would to say a huge thank you both from me and Yamina, it’s been amazing to hear your contributions. Really, really good to speak to you. So. Yeah, thank you very much for that.

00:37:16:09 – 00:37:24:23
Julie
Thank you, Nick. Brilliant. Thank you. Well done, Yamina. Well done for leading the way.

00:37:24:23 – 00:37:33:28
Yamina
Thank you so much. We’ve been Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi, the co-hosts of the Diverse Ed podcast.

[Outro Music]

00:37:33:28 – 00:37:50:07
Hannah
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Ed Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.